President Museveni says Uganda could be the most democratic country in the world. FILE PHOTO
Now 25 years in power and counting but trying times are beckoning for President Museveni. The opposition’s walk-to-work campaign is not only bringing out the worst of Ugandan security agencies but also ironically putting on the spot the man credited for pulling Uganda out of years of oppression and misrule. So is the President losing the shine? We bring you an edited version of his interview with NTV Kenya’s Linus Kaikai.
Interview starts with a video clip of Dr Besigye attempting to walk to work and the subsequent brutal arrest and torture by state agents.
Mr President, many people have compared what we have just seen in the video clip with what used to happen during the years of former President Idi Amin Dada. How does it make you feel when comparisons are made between your style of rule and that of Amin?
Well, it just shows that you are not serious, you [Kaikai], who is reporting all this [pointing at the screen showing Besigye being tortured]. You did not show when people were stoning the police or when they were attacking vehicles. Cars were destroyed in Kampala, damaged, but you do not show it there. That is a partial story. But even if it is a partial story, why should a civilised leader resist the police. If they say come with us, why do you resist? Why don’t you go along with them and see what they want to do?
We have not seen any resistance Mr President in that clip. We have seen policemen breaking windows of the vehicle of the leader of opposition?
No no no! First of all Besigye was walking, the police blocked him, they said you come with us. He should have cooperated with them. That’s what civilised people do. But he didn’t.
Talking of civility Mr President, was it civilised for police to behave in the way they did?
Yes, there could be some mistakes but the original mistake is for a mature person, a leader, not to be exemplary in following the law. These young people can make their own mistakes but how about me? I should be an example. I am a mature person if I have a point of view and these young policemen say come with us, and I cooperate with them. But not to struggle with these young people, because they could make mistakes.
You call them young people but they are the police and security agencies of Uganda. Are you concerned with what their actions will do to your personal image?
Ah, my image will not be touched by this [pointing at the screen] because my image is based on substance. Mr President I want to quote you in 1987 a year after you came to power. You said Uganda had gone through a traumatic period because Idi Amin and Milton Obote didn’t respect the rule of law. What do you say to critics who today say the same of you? [Toughing the tone] That gentleman, Besigye, who was being arrested, was being taken to court. Do you know what Amin used to do? Murder them and throw them in River Nile for the crocodiles. I have not heard of Besigye’s body floating for the crocodiles to eat.
What about the manner of his arrest?
[Visibly annoyed]: That may have its own problem but also how about his conduct? Why don’t you talk about that?
Mr President, Kizza Besigye is the ace of the Ugandan Political opposition. Would you say the government of Uganda has treated the Opposition in Uganda the way civilised and democracies should treat the opposition?
Yes. The opposition should be civilised. First of all he didn’t inform the police. Yes, you have the freedom to demonstrate but the police have got powers to regulate public assembly. If you want to demonstrate but I am selling tomatoes where you want to pass and the third party comes in to mediate our interests, that is how civilised societies are organised.
Three or four times we have seen Dr Besigye trying to make this walk to work and in all of those incidents we have not detected any violations. You are talking about planning to step on tomatoes?
That’s what they were planning. Because the police has intelligence, they know that this walk is supposed to attract a group which will then start looting. But if I ask you a question, you the evangelist of civilisation; What is so hard with a civilised political leader coordinating with the police? After all, we were doing it during the just-concluded elections. All of us were under the Electoral Commission [EC]. I could not hold a rally without informing the EC.
Your government has not allowed public demonstrations since the elections?
Because they do not inform the people they are supposed to inform [repeats it].
In a few days, you will be sworn in for a new term. What is your agenda this coming term considering the events of the past few days? We look at the mandate you got during the elections and it was quite high but looking at the mood in the country now, there is a bit of a gap between the mandate you commanded in the February polls and the state you find yourself in politically today. Well, I do not see the gap. The gap is that when we voted, about five million voters supported us. There are those who didn’t vote for us, about two million voters, so there is no gap. Our programme is to deal with the foundation. This hotel in which you are smartly dressed is because of the foundation. Without a foundation there is no way this house can be here.
It’s been 25 years Mr President and the foundation has not been completed yet?
Well, you did not hear what the foundation is. The foundation has a number of items. Electricity is one of them, roads, railway, education. There are many elements. In the past 25 years we have dealt with some elements.
Would basic freedoms be part of that foundation; would freedom of speech, freedom of expression, freedom of assembly, democratic practice and expansion of political space be part of that foundation we are talking about? It so happens that those are the things I fought for. That’s what I fought for. We fought for those freedoms. But they must be exercised with discipline. I am now dialoguing with you but if you step on me, then the dialogue will have to be stopped. But why do you have to step on me? Why don’t you regulate your behaviour as I regulate mine? Maybe there is a neutral regulator who regulates us such as the police, the electoral commission, the courts. Why don’t you respect those regulators?
All the three regulators that you have mentioned, the police, the EC and the courts, your critics feel are 100 per cent in your hands. They are not exactly free to pay umpires. Oh! That must be new information now. Because the only body which we disbanded when we won the civil war was the army. We inherited all the other institutions; the civil service, even this police.
Talking of the foundation and these institution that you do mention; we do remember that you had beginnings by fighting a liberation war when your were young and leading the NRA; and it would have been expected that after many years, 25, we would see the de-politicisation of the army but we see and what we witnessed during the elections was the continued politicisation of the army. The army continues to play a very big role in Ugandan politics. When is this going to end?
What did they do in politics?
They are very visible. They are in polling stations, they are almost a very active player. No, they are not in polling stations. Each polling station is manned by one [police] constable. The army is only in the zone not in the polling station, they back up the police in case somebody wants to cause trouble. There are still parliamentary seats reserved for the army. Yes. There is no harm in that because the army was responsible for the liberation of the people of Uganda. All development we have is because of the work of the army. There is no harm in having 10 seats out of 340, I think, such a huge number. But the army is there and they engage in discussions when there are national issues of great importance otherwise, they just keep quiet and watch what’s happening.
We would like to hear your own broad assessment of the state of democracy in Uganda considering that you came from a single party system, [Movement] now to a multi-party system. Where is Uganda?
Uganda may be, I suspect maybe the most democratic country in the world [opens his eyes wide open] because we have 238 directly-elected seats which are competed for on merit by parties. We have 112 special seats for women, five seats for people with disabilities, five seats for youth and five for workers. I have not heard many systems in the world which take into account those interest groups. So if I were to give a lecture on democracy I think I would have good credentials to do so.
Was it a positive move that the presidential term limits were removed?
Yes. We removed the Presidential term limits because the problem of Africa is not term limits. The problem of Africa is the fundamentals which I was talking about: electricity, roads, and education. Another challenge is integration; making countries of Africa to come together so that we have viable economic units. If people are voting and they want to vote this candidate or vote out the other one; that is there choice and that is the benchmark. That’s the lowest common multiple to determine whether a system is democratic or not. About these term limits, that is according to individual countries. Many countries do not have that term limits.
So the persistent question would be when would you leave office?
When my party decides to have another candidate because it is the party which puts forward another candidate or when I decide not to present myself. The struggle which we have been engaged in for the last 45 years to bring up Uganda and if possible also bring up Africa, is the one which guides our choices whether I should participate or not.
But are you concerned with some of the turns that have attended to similar examples where we have limitless terms. In Egypt, Hosni Mubarak was there for very many years, same to Ben Ali of Tunisia. Are you concerned that this sort of resentment can eventually catch up with President Museveni of Uganda?
Well I do not know the system in Egypt or Tunisia. I don’t know how competitive they were. Were they competitive systems? I do not know.
They had no term limits
There are no term limits in the UK, France or Israel. I do not know whether its there in Germany. Have you done the census to know how many countries have term limits or not? Therefore, the crucial thing is the competitiveness in the political system. Was the system in Egypt competitive enough? I do not know. How about the one in Tunisia? But as far as Uganda is concerned the system in very competitive. There is no limit on the number of parties, no limit on who can contest.
Uganda is the only country in the East African Community without term limits. Does that make you feel like you are the odd one out?
No. That is our system. And when we form the East African Federation, we shall see how to harmonise. If the rest want term limits then I will support them. But work on the Federation through your radio. In addition to talking all these little things you keep taking about, talk about the East African Federation. Okay?
We thank you very much Mr President.
Thank you.
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